It took me a long time to master the art of saying “no.”
Even after hyper-intentional and intensive self-work to establish (and stick to) my boundaries, sometimes I have a relapse. If I give a “dirty yes,” it’s at the expense of my wellbeing and against my better judgment.
Why? Because — like so many of my girlfriends and clients — I want to be helpful and come across as accommodating. Who doesn’t want the people you interact with to like you and think you’re nice? (Answer: The people who often forget about their boundaries.)
The need for approval escalates when you’re abroad. You’re rebuilding your social network, parenting from guilt, feeling lonely, and emotionally vulnerable. So, you justify softening your boundaries, like a rewarding cookie (or 4) at the end of a hard day.
If you have to be a doormat and compromise your boundaries to be liked, then it’s better that you forgo that affection.
This week, it’s my honor to welcome renowned psychotherapist and author Jennie Miller. In their highly-acclaimed book, “Boundaries: How to Draw the Line in Your Head, Heart, and Home,” Jennie and award-winning journalist Victoria Lambert discuss the importance of boundaries.
Jennie joins us to share pragmatic solutions for developing your self-esteem so that you can make and maintain boundaries for a calmer, more fulfilling life.
What You’ll Learn in this Episode:
- Warning signs you need better boundaries
- The friendship drama triangle & shifting the rescuer vs. victim role
- Renegotiating boundaries & lovingly navigating a negative response
- Why the biggest threat comes from our closest relationships
- Positive strokes & “self” high fives
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- The holidays are a hot zone for compromised boundaries. Each month, I leave a few spots open in my calendar for private, one-off intensive coaching sessions. Let’s chat and make a plan, so you’re ready this December and finish the year on top.
- Jennie Miller Twitter Handle – https://twitter.com/JENNIEMILLER7
- Jennie Miller Website – https://www.jenniemillercounselling.co.uk/
- Facebook Business Page – Sundae Schneider-Bean LLC
- Facebook Group – Expats on Purpose
We’re delighted by our recent nomination to the global Top 25 Expat Podcasts!
Full Episode Transcript:
Hello, it is 2 am in New York, 9 am in Johannesburg and 2 pm in Bangkok. Welcome to the Expat Happy Hour. This is Sundae Schneider-Bean from www.sundaebean.com. I’m a solution oriented coach and intercultural strategist for individuals and organizations and I am on a mission to help you adapt and succeed when living abroad and get you through any life transition
You have a hard time saying no, you’re frustrated because there’s never enough time to do what really matters to you, you often feel spread too thin.
Today I have the answer for you, and it begins with boundaries.
There is no better person I can think of inviting onto Expat Happy Hour to learn about them then from Jennie Miller, psychotherapist trainer and supervisor and co-author of the book “Boundaries: How to Draw the Line in Your Head, Heart and Home.”
Jennie is amazing, she recently just moved from Hampshire where she had this thriving private practice for couples, individuals, and supervisees to Edinburgh Scotland, so she understands what transition is like. She spent many years as a psychotherapist working primarily with couples around boundaries and storytelling. She is also the founder of “The key to a couple work training.”
And of course has been working in tight collaboration with the award-winning journalist, Victoria Lambert on this book. The result is a four-step program to help develop self-esteem, create time to do the things that nourish and fulfill you, discover a deep sense of calm and achieve healthy control over your life, home, and work.
Who doesn’t want that!
So it is my absolute pleasure to welcome. Jennie Miller to Expat Happy Hour.
Sundae: So now that they’ve heard a little bit about you, I’d like to welcome you to Expat Happy Hour.
Jennie: Thank you.
Sundae: Thank you so much for being here, you know, I was looking through your book before you and I hopped on the phone together and I was kind of in that sort of panic mode of “Oh my gosh, there’s so much goodness in here I do not know where to begin.” Because what you offer is so pragmatic.
But let’s just start with the basics. Your book is “Boundaries: How to Draw the Line in Your Head, Heart and Home.” Can you start by just simply telling us, what is a boundary?
Jennie: Well, simply, that’s what I was asked by my writing partner right at the beginning, which is why I then it turned into a book. Because it can start off as sounding quite simple, but then it ends up being actually a very long conversation. So as simply as possible, is that its first of all about knowing your own personal boundary, knowing the place in you that is the “Okay, that’s enough, I need to stop or I need to go forward.” Because healthy boundaries aren’t always about stopping and it’s also sometimes about pushing ourselves forward. Because in unhealthy boundary can equally be one that allows too many people to invade your space, but it can also be one that doesn’t allow you to get out there.
Sundae: Hmm, yeah, I don’t think people typically think about it from both sides, that’s really useful.
A lot of my clients say that they have a hard time saying no, and one of the things that you mentioned that I absolutely love, in your book you say that love can soften any boundary. That often times when I work with individuals, they want to set a boundary, new ways of doing things, but when their loved ones come into the picture it’s hard to keep that hard “no” a “no” or that “yes” a “yes.” They’re saying yes to themselves, but then people are asking things of them. So it can be it can be hard to navigate boundaries that you really think you want.
Jennie: Yes, it can be and that can be through really loving your friend, so really having a new friend at whatever age and that lovely feeling of “Wow. I really connect with this person.” And you just want to be boundary-less really, through to falling in love with a partner through to falling in love with your children, that it can make us want to be boundary-less.
Sundae: So why are boundaries good?
Jennie: So boundaries are good because it brings in an ability to be safe and to look after yourself in the relationship and therefore to be in a healthy place of looking after the relationship.
Sundae: Yep, you know something I think you and I really aligned on is that step one of your book is, me myself and I, how you really do have to start with yourself so you can have healthy boundaries. And I love that you say you look after yourself so that you can look after the relationship, so if you truly value the relationship you will look after yourself.
Jennie: Absolutely, because I think it is quite common to feel that actually “What if I really love that person?” It’s even sort of comes across sometimes in magazines and films, “If I really love that person, I will do anything for them.” Well that that isn’t actually real love and that can end up then being dangerous to the relationship. Then resentment can come in.
Sundae: Absolutely, so this idea of being a martyr to your family, for example, it leads to bitterness and resentment.
Jennie: Absolutely, yes.
Sundae: So it’s not real love, I love that. So when you fail to look after yourself, you are not doing your best to look after your relationship and when you are being a martyr in your relationships, it’s not real love.
Jennie: No, you’ve gone somewhere else, you’re not in that sort of adult, I’m using TA speak, it’s something we use in the book, but it’s about being in the here and now and what’s best for you in the here and now. Which actually initially sounds simple and initially sounds like, well yes of course that makes sense, but in practice is harder and takes practice to be able to do.
Sundae: Right, so this is so immense and what I love about what you’ve done is you’ve really shown a mirror of how people can use boundaries to create more in their lives with fitness, eating, social media, their children, etc. etc.
Before we go into the details, how did you come to write this book? It’s phenomenal.
Jennie: Thank you, it came about through just coffee conversation with Victoria, and she really thought about it which side to put it in the book, right at the beginning, how she was having a dilemma over sending an email. She was being asked to be once again on a board, “Can you do this? Can you do that?” And she had done this and she had done more than enough for this board voluntarily.
And she’s written a chapter and verse email which I think is very recognizable to a lot of people you know, “I’m really sorry, I can’t do this, and this is the reason why.” And on and on and on, giving a whole backstory of why not. And then at the end of the email she had said, “But let me know if I can be of any further help.” And that is what I started with, I said, “So what’s that about? Why are you leaving the door open? You’re saying you’ll still help.” And she hadn’t seen that. And it was just being nice and friendly.
So I said, “Actually you could write this.” And it was literally a paragraph, “Thank you for asking me again, I’ve enjoyed our time together and now it’s time for me to move on, I wish you well.” And she couldn’t believe she could write that and it would be okay. So with quite a lot of fear, actually she sent that email. Waited 24 hours, quaking that there may be quite an unpleasant parental backlash. And she got a very nice email back saying, “Thank you very much, we’ve appreciated everything you’ve done, all the best for your future.” And she couldn’t believe how it worked.
Sundae: All of that for nothing, and I think it ties to this idea of how we want to be nice, which is very different from being kind and we want to be liked
Jennie: Yes, yes, yes, yes, but being nice isn’t equal to being a doormat, there’s no respect there.
Sundae: Exactly, and if I want to be liked because I’m a doormat I’d rather not have their affection to be perfectly honest.
And again, that’s not that’s not real real love, that’s not real kindness.
So what do you think are some of the warning signs, if someone’s listening they’re like, “Oh gosh, I have a hard time saying no.” What are some other warning signs that you need to set better boundaries in your life.
Jennie: Well warning signs, so say your listeners who are listening to the podcast, I would like them to have a think, okay so if say you’re listening to this in the morning, “Look at my day, what have I got on today?” Or if you’re listening to it in the evening or the afternoon, “What have I got on over the next 24 hours? How many of those things do I need to do? So yes, I may need to obviously take my children’s school or I may need to go to work.” And they need to be doing both, but have a look through and see what else, what do you actually need to do and what have you said yes to doing in order to be nice or in order to be liked or in order to try and keep someone else happy, so actually they’re not unpleasant to you.
Look at those and see what would it be like, I’m not saying right at the beginning that you have to rush in and change everything at all, this is small steps. But just imagine, say that you are dropping the kids at school and then you are going to work and then that precious half hour lunch slot you’ve got, you’ve said actually yes, that’s all right you will check your friends work, you don’t need to go to lunch you’ll check over something for them.
What would it have been like if you’d said “Actually, you know what, I can’t do that today.” And you had that half an hour, what would you do in that half an hour?
Sundae: It ties to what, you know, I draw on the work from Dr. Martha Beck and she talks about the body compass. So really listen to your body on what feels feels good for you and she talks about shackles on and shackles off. If looking over your friends work over lunch feels like it’s shackles on, it’s probably a sign you’ve said “yes” to be nice to them but not because it’s totally an alignment with what you want.
And I talk about this like a “dirty yes,” I don’t want a dirty yes from someone I want a clean yes.
But sometimes people don’t even know what they want, so they’re not even clear, is this a clean yes or a dirty yes? How do you think people get started with with understanding that?
Jennie: So this is why it is small steps. So it’s looking forward, “What is my next one-four hours looking like? What would it be looking like if I’d said no to that friend?” And it’s also looking backwards, my last 24 hours, “What would it look like if I’ve said, actually maybe to one of my children who came in after school and said ‘I’ve been asked to Brian to Jade’s house, can you can you take me round?’” And you look at the child and you want to make them happy, but actually in doing that you did take them to Jade’s house and then you realize you had to go fit in something else and then went to pick them up and by the time you went to pick them up you are probably pretty ratty and pretty pissed off and end up being quite grumpy and snappy with them and then it all gets worse and worse and end of day or at bedtime.
Sundae: Oh gosh, how many people have been there? I mean, I know there are people listening right now going “Okay, totally been there.” It all started out ironically, to be nice to your child and then you end up being momzilla.
Jennie: Exactly, so first of all to start with it’s sort of imagining, visualising, “Okay, what would it be line and I’ll send myself back to that time and I’ll say ‘You know what, I can’t do that today, that’s not going to work, you could see her another day.’” And maybe give the child some updates on “This day and this day that would be fine, I can fit that in, but today that’s not going to work.” And tolerating your child’s anger, misery, and the fear of missing out. “But actually, you know what we all have to tolerate fear of missing out sometimes, you can do that another time.”
Sundae: Using it as a teaching moment. You know in your book you say under one of the things where you talked about drawing the line you say, “Self boundaries don’t just mean being firm with ourselves, but with others sometimes the greatest threat to you building a strong set of self boundaries comes from the person you love the most.”
Jennie: Yes, it really does because they’re the ones who are already in further. So in the beginning of the book we have this little bit of visualization about imagining your own boundary and from that, that can really help you realize those who do easily invade it or you invite it in or agree to it. And so you need to be really aware of that. We all know the people that we keep arm’s length, it’s a term isn’t it? People say “Oh, I they are nice, but actually I kind of keep them at arm’s length.” We know the people that we do that with, but it’s harder to do that with our loved ones.
Sundae: Right, because it feels like it’s creating distance, but what we’ve just heard is actually when we don’t respect our boundaries our behavior ends up sabotaging the situation and we’re not creating connection, it’s the opposite.
So there’s a couple of things that I’m really really curious about. The first one, I don’t have the research in front of me, but I’ll just tell you from my hunch and I’m going to see if you know from the research. My experience of my clients is that the women I work with really have a hard time creating strong boundaries because they get tangled up in like, “What I want is so connected to what my partner wants so I also want that and I also want what my kids want.” So it’s like this woven mass of where your wants are connected to other people’s wants. So tell me, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I’ve noticed in my practice. Is there research that supports that?
Jennie: I don’t think there is yet, but I think it’s absolutely the case, I think slowly it’s changing. But generally, normally I hate generalizations, but it’s hard not to see it, that little girls are brought up to be more pleasing to others and little boys are not encouraged to be as pleasing to others and they probably need to meet somewhere in the middle.
Very often little girls are, and you can still see it, so if you have a room full of adults, the chances are it might be the little girl who’s asked “Can you go and get the biscuits from the kitchen?” And it won’t often be the little boy who will be asked that, and that can seem a totally innocent thing, but we do educate and we have historically educated our girls to please others and we’ve educated our boys more to please themselves, which equally has not then been been healthy for them.
Sundae: Right, everybody loses.
Jennie: Yeah, totally.
Sundae: I remember I know my background way back in my bachelor’s degree in the 90s, was with Amy Sheldon and Deborah Tannen, you know about gender communication and what we were learning from the research then is how that early socialization of girls and boys, and of course the question of nature versus nurture, isn’t fully answered, but it’s frightening how we do that. And I’m raising two boys and I try to be mindful of the messages I send but some of them are just flip out of our mouth before we even realize that they’re that they’re happening.
The thing that I see people struggle with, you and I both use the same term of first-class self-care, that one of the steps for my clients to start taking care of themselves, and you have an exact same order in in your book about me, myself and I. You start with yourself and you talk about this idea, you say, “Good self-care doesn’t equal self-spoiling, it’s not about indulging yourself, but taking mature decisions.” I love that. Can you help us understand, what’s the difference between indulging and taking a mature decision?
Jennie: Okay, so I think we can get the lines blurred with this one. I think food is the easiest one to look at on this because you may have had a bit of a rough morning, it may be coffee time, and you may think “I’ve had a really pants morning, I’m going to have a biscuit.” Fine have a biscuit, I mean, I really don’t want to be the food police, I really don’t like this sort of good food bad food stuff, have a biscuit. But the healthy boundary is have a biscuit or two biscuits and that’s it. It can be quite difficult sometimes because it can turn into, “Well now it’s started I may as well finish the packet.” Or if it’s a hard candy packet, “Well, there’s only two left I might as well have four biscuits.” Then that’s gone into self-indulgence, that’s not looking after yourself because the chances are you are going to feel rubbish about yourself.
Sundae: The same goes with alcohol like, “I’ve had a long day, I’m just going to have a glass of wine and then maybe a second, well the bottle is almost finished so I might as well finish it.” Right? Same thing.
Jennie: It is absolutely and think often if you are parents you can do that with your children as well that sometimes it’s easier to see it with your child. “Actually, you know what love two biscuits that’s enough, you need to have your supper soon.” We can sometimes see it more easily with another but we can’t see it with ourselves. Or we may equally go down the “Oh, well, they might as well have the whole lot now to keep the peace.”
None of that is healthy, it’s not healthy with another and it’s certainly not healthy with yourself either. And the first time you do it, the first time you can do that for yourself or for the other, it’s really noting it, we talk about positive strokes, it’s really giving us that positive affirmation of “You know what, well done me, I’ve had a rubbish day so far, I’ve had a coffee, I’ve had a couple of biscuits, I’ve given myself a little treat, I’m feeling a bit better for it. It sort of speaks to my inner child and I feel like I’ve been cozy and looked after a bit, that’s good. And I didn’t need anymore.” It’s noticing also when you do make that healthy boundary don’t just sort of go “Oh well I’ve done that.” And move on, stop and take a moment, give yourself a good pat on the back. That’s so important.
Sundae: Celebrating it. It’s so central, what do we get if we do the work to get clear on our boundaries and are mindful about setting them and working at keeping them, what do we get?
Jennie: You will get a healthier relationship. So let’s start with food, you’re going to get a healthier relationship with food. I think if you have healthy boundaries, there’s no need to be on the dreaded diet word. You don’t need to diet, you can eat what you want because you have healthy boundaries around it. So it will help your relationship with food, with alcohol, with fitness. And with your relationships outside work, in work, family relationships.
It’s not a magic wand, we’re not going to be sending you immediately over the rainbow and everything’s going to be colorful and beautiful and you’re gonna be tripping down the yellow brick road. It will be tough, because there will be times when you actually think, “Oh forget that I’m eating the whole packet.” Or “No, I’m finishing the bottle.” Or “I’m not going to the gym.” Or “I’m not going to go and pay that tennis.” But it’s okay, in learning to do it we make the mistakes, we come back on the path and we can keep going. Friendship is the biggest health warnings that friendships will change as well.
Sundae: Can you say more about your friendships? That’s interesting.
Jennie: So a bit further on in the book we talk about something called “The drama triangle.” And it’s how we we all do it, we all set up relationships where either we may be the person who looks and looks after the other one more and the friend may be the one who always seems to be getting it, having scrapes, always seem to be having crises and needs looking after more.
So you have this what we call, the rescuer and victim relationship where the other one just seems to be a victim of circumstance, stuff keeps happening and the rescuer feels good in looking after them. And that is a very classic sort of friendship or even relationship. Now, that can keep running for years even until maybe the rescuer begins to get a bit hacked off, maybe begins to think, “Oh God, you’re on the phone again, something is going wrong and I’m actually trying to get out the door.”
They begin to feel a bit peeved and then they begin to feel a bit more than peeved, then they begin to feel cross and then they begin to build up resentment until something happened to them and they want their victim friends to look after them and victim friend doesn’t do it, because why should they, they’ve never had to do that. Because rescuers are really rubbish asking other people for help.
So the rescuer friend may begin to feel a bit persecutory towards the victim friend and then that could be quite a big upset and that could be the breakdown in the relationship. The rescuer may sort of be looking to the victim and say, “Hang on, I’m always listening to you, I want you to listen to me now.” But the victim friend, may be, “Well that’s kind of like never been the deal, you’ve always just listen to me what’s going on with this change?
Sundae: That’s scary for people, I think, it’s like if I change the rules of the game are they going to leave the game?
Jennie: Exactly, and it’s that worry that keeps us in the game instead of having the healthy conversation of “You know what, let’s talk about our friendship, let’s look at what goes on here. I’ve realized that I have never actually really let you help me, I never asked you for help.” And the victim friend to be thinking, “Actually, you know what you’ve got a point, you are always looking after me.”
If you can have that healthy conversation you can get out of the drama and have a clean healthy relationship. But it might be the relationships been so built on that it can’t do it and that’s where it may be a breakdown.
I mean, I think it’s the same as when people come into therapy, they think that just bringing themselves into therapy initially, but of course they’re not, they’re bringing in all their relationships. And one person in therapy will have a ripple effect on their immediate family and friends and some relationships will be able to sustain and work through that and some might not, that may be an end of some relationships.
Sundae: Well, yeah because you change a dynamic, change a relationship and this is the hard truth if the status quo is not working for you you either carry that as a martyr for the rest of your life and hold your resentment and bitterness or you stand in more alignment with what feels right and authentic for you and then it shakes shit up, it’s terrifying for people.
Jennie: It is very scary, but through that you can have, either it might be the end of that relationship and then you’re in a place to know how to build a better one in the future, you learn from it. OR you work through it and you have a better relationship.
Sundae: So actually it’s not as scary as it sounds.
Jennie: Scary at the time but longer-term benefits.
Sundae: Yep, so in German, they called it “Lerngeld” like the learning money that you pay, so you either you pay your “Lerngeld”, the drama is the learning or the growth. And there’s something about learning, I don’t know what that is, you know when I have something going in my relationship and maybe resentment is building or something is going on and I’m like, “Oh, yeah.” And I seriously just want to point my finger like “And he never, and this one!” And then I’m like, “Oh crap, I got to look at myself.” Because I know if I start on myself first half of the problem is solved.
Jennie: Yeah, “Okay, they seem to be doing xyz, what’s my part in it?”
Sundae: And it’s like, “Oh I have more learning to do again.”
Jennie: Yeah, that’s true it never stops.
Sundae: So just to recap here when you’re in the beginning of renegotiating your boundaries, there can be some fear that the result of the renegotiation could impact your relationships, but the bumps that are coming are either going to pay you back in learning or actual growth and depth in your relationship. So while bumpy, worth it.
There is something interesting, when I was preparing for our interview I came across a few quotes about boundaries and I wanted to hear your perspective on this one. It says, by Melody Beattie, “We cannot simultaneously set a boundary and take care of another person’s feelings.”
Jennie: Yes, I think that is true, you have to focus on the boundary because if you start with focusing on the other person’s feelings, then there’s no boundary the boundary is gone.
Sundae: You’re ignoring what you want.
Jennie: Yeah, on the same note I’m saying no to you, “You look really upset, how are you feeling?” Okay, there needs to be empathy in boundary setting, but then let them see that you are keeping your feet on the ground so you can reach out to the other and say, “Okay, I can see saying no to you, you look upset, tell me how you’re feeling?” But that doesn’t mean it changes your boundary.
Sundae: I love that, so it’s a very loving way to hold your boundaries and empathetic way to hold your boundaries, but not change your boundaries based on their response.
Jennie: Absolutely, and it’s important, I think sometimes we can think of boundaries as very harsh, very unthinking, it’s not. You are to be in touch with your own feelings first and to be in touch with the other person’s feelings, but it doesn’t mean that you’re swayed. So thinking back to like the saying no to the child, “No, you can’t, I can’t drive you around to your friend’s house tonight.” Seeing them upset, you can be in touch with that but it doesn’t mean you say, “Oh, I can see you’re upset, okay, I’ll get my keys.”
Sundae: I love that. You know, I think I could do a better job at that as a parent, because I think sometimes when I’m setting a boundary, I want to get a little authoritarian like, “Nope, that’s what’s happening.” You know because I do want to make them happy but if I don’t want to acquiesce, I’ll be like, “Nope, we’re not doing it.” A little bit cold and I’m hearing that’s a nice way of framing, of still being present, empathize and not moving the boundary that makes sense.
You know Byron Katie she talks about, there are three three types of business, there’s your business, my business and what she calls God’s business, it could be things outside of our control. And that’s probably one of the most helpful tools that I learned right back when I was starting coaching, of whose business am I in? When you’re taking care of someone else’s feelings, you’re actually in their business for how they are responding. And how arrogant is it of us to think that we can control someone’s thoughts or feelings?
Jennie: Yes, absolutely.
Sundae: So important thank you so much, this is this is pivotal for people who are working on making themselves a priority. And a lot of women that I work with are looking for more purpose and meaning and it’s crucial that they start with taking better care of themselves and setting better boundaries. So the work that you’re doing is so important.
Let’s just think about last words of wisdom, if someone’s listening to this they’re going to check your book out and they’re now prepared that they’re going to have the tools, but the road ahead might be bumpy. What advice do you have for them?
Jennie: Be kind to yourself, coming back to that actually it will be bumpy, there will be times when you will say yes to the child and get your keys and then end up resenting them and having a rubbish end to the day. Okay, it’s all right, you know it is the old sort of analogy of driving the car, when you first drive a car and you first learn to sort of change gears, it is all bumpy and the clutch and you end up bouncing around the road a bit, but you keep going and you end up driving smoothly. Setting boundaries is the same, it will be bumpy, there may sometimes be a bit of a near miss but you’ll end up climbing smoothly.
You know how sometimes when we have a very familiar drive, we drive from A to B so many times, could be the school run, could be to work. And sometimes you get to your destination and you think “Golly I just got here and I really didn’t take the journey in.” We’re so used to doing it, the same as boundaries. It can get to the point where you do it and you don’t even realize you’re doing it, the more you practice it the easier it becomes, truly.
Sundae: Yeah, and there’s this level of accepting humanity to this. A lot of my people are perfectionists, I call myself a recovering perfectionist and it’s like no one shames a toddler for falling down, no one shames their teenage son for not being fluent in French in his first semester. Why do we do that with ourselves? And it is that journey and people come to me when they’re struggling with stuff and that’s one thing I’m really honest about is there’s no, yes there are a-ha moments and epiphanes and all of that, even in the first session, but true true transformation takes time.
Jennie: Yes, absolutely, give it time, every small step you take, every small boundary you put in place, remembering to stop and go, “Well done, well done me, I have done that.”
Sundae: One of my dear friends she shared with me a concept that she had and she calls it “The self high five”, where she was struggling with a terrible illness and through that process she learned she had to be kinder to herself.
So give yourself the self high five.
Jennie: Absolutely, I so often hear that that people with terrible illnesses or people who have had a sudden terrible loss or bereavement, have lost their jobs, all the losses one can have, loss of health, loss of life close to one. Those are the people that they’ll say “Oh my God, you’ve just got to make the most of life, you’ve got to look after yourself.” Okay, let’s not all have to get to that point to have to look after ourselves.
Sundae: Right,, let’s not be at the end of our life before we realize we should celebrate our successes.
So this has been so wonderful, thank you so much for your time and wisdom and to you and Victoria for writing the book it is a really powerful contribution.
If people want to learn more about you or find out about what you do more directly, where should they go?
Jennie: I’ve got a website which is www.jenniemillercounselling.co.uk/
Sundae: I’ll put that in the show notes for sure.
Definitely check out the book “Boundaries: How to Draw the Line in Your Head, Heart and Home.”
So thank you so much for being here, it’s been an absolute pleasure.
Jennie: Thank you, I have really enjoyed talking to you.
Sundae: This is Expat Happy Hour with Sundae Schneider-Bean, thank you for listening.
I’ll leave you with an anonymous quote “Lack of boundaries invites lack of respect and I would add not only from others but yourself.”