180: Leading Change with Ntando Cele

Hello. It is 6:30 am in New York 12:30 pm in Johannesburg and 5:30 pm in Bangkok. Welcome to the Expat Happy Hour. This is Sundae Schneider-Bean from www.sundaebean.com. I am a solution-orientated coach and intercultural strategist for individuals and organizations. I am on a mission to help you adapt and succeed when living abroad and get you through any life transition. COVID-19 has fueled anti-Asian racism and xenophobia worldwide. African-Americans are dying of COVID-19 at almost a triple rate of white people in some areas of the United States. The recent, very public death of George Floyd has caused a huge surge in awareness of how black people are being systematically dehumanized and are subject to ongoing police brutality and continue, after centuries, to endure racist systems as do other indigenous and people of color. 

All of this is happening before our eyes as a global community. The travel bans because of COVID are keeping people from using their voice directly or supporting those that mean the most to them. For some members of our globally mobile community, we are seeing the weight of expat fatigue on top of racial battle fatigue on top of activism fatigue. This is a recipe for burnout. This is a risk of losing the voices that we need to hear the most and that is why It is my absolute pleasure to welcome today’s guest to Expat Happy Hour.

Sundae: Ntando Cele is the co-founder of Manaka Empowerment Productions. This is a performance company which combines music, text and video and performance to question identity, face prejudice and seek out stereotypes. Their company stands behind the knowing that a multicultural society doesn’t necessarily mean that there is an intercultural understanding. Ntando, this is my absolute warm welcome to Expat Happy Hour. Thank you for being here.

Ntando: Thank you for having me Sundae. 

 

Sundae: So I’m so excited to have Ntando here today. I’m going to tell you a little bit more about Ntando and how it came to be that she’s on the podcast this week. I know Ntando for I don’t know, just under a year. We’ve been working closely together and there’s a South African connection. Ntando is from South Africa and is also based in Bern, Switzerland. So it’s interesting that she and I met while I was in South Africa and she was in Switzerland and now we’re both based in the same area. 

Ntando is a performer and a theater-maker and much much more. Right now she is using her skills and know-how and life experience to offer support to people right now who are ready to show up for change but might be struggling. So Ntando, can you help us understand a little bit more about you and how you got to do what you do today? 

Ntando: Yeah. Definitely. I’m originally a performer, you know, and somebody who learned acting and how to channel my voice and my physicality into different forms of expression. So after I think 2009, I moved to Holland where I wanted to further my studies and I did a master’s program in theater-making and then I kind of came face-to-face with prejudice. 

Not to say that I didn’t face it in South Africa. It felt different facing it in Holland, away from South Africa because I thought that moving away would kind of solve all my problems. When I was in Holland, it really felt like it was about time I confronted this heavy feeling in the chest and in the stomach of not being able to fully be who you want to be because of things that you don’t fully understand, but you definitely feel.

That was also the first time I fully faced what this feeling is and then tried to explain it to myself and therefore through my work and to others what it means and how we can begin to overcome this feeling.

Sundae: Your work is so powerful. I’m going to make sure that in the blog notes they have access to your performances that you have on your website because they will hit you in the gut, that’s really really powerful work. 

You and I talked about you coming on as a guest a month and a half ago. Yeah, and we agreed when you’re ready, you’re welcome to come on and then you know for those who were listening, on Friday, I reached out to Ntando and “hey, doesn’t it kind of feel like a good time to come on Expat Happy Hour?” and you said, “if not now, when.”

Why is it so important that Expats abroad, who are people of color or even activists, why is it so important that they’re connected with your work right now?

Ntando: Well, you know, I think it’s important because I don’t only think that we should be all talking about prejudice or about how it makes certain parts of society feel. I also think that we as people experiencing all these feelings should be able to then heal. 

Lately, it’s been my passion to find ways of how we are going to heal and how we are going to move forward because I know from experience that this feels heavy, and then you feel completely powerless, and you feel as if there’s nothing you can do to change the situation that you’re in. 

So I’m trying to now work to move us in a direction where you feel like, “oh, I can actually do something and the power lies within me.” I can’t change the world but I can definitely change how I respond and change how I feel about myself because we’ve been so influenced by what I call in my work a lot “the white gaze”, about how we look at ourselves through The eyes of others so much. 

Sundae: You and I talked about this a few months ago with this lockdown with COVID, how It was actually an opportunity for people of color to have a break from microaggressions and it was a time to rest. 

Ntando: Oh, man. Yeah, I remember. That’s exactly how I used this time. The time of not having to actually be forced to go to work. I did try to sleep more and to take care of myself more and to look within more. Also again, if not now when? This was the excuse to do that, of course, the kids would still be around but you know, it was really important for me to also do that during this time, to really try and rest because also, this kind of work is exhausting.

 You don’t only look at the outside and then get angry about the outside, but you internalize everything that you see happening outside of yourself. 

Sundae: RIght. Can you say more about internalizing? 

Ntando: Well, I know that the way that I was raised, coming from South Africa,  always looking at whiteness as a standard or white people as a standard, whether it be for beauty,  whether it be for things that feel good, whether it be for anything related to myself, my hair, things that are also very personal.

That is the first place that you look, “this is not good enough.” Or my hair is not good enough, how I dress is not good enough, how I feel is not good enough, and I say internalize because these things feel so part of my blood, my veins, my feelings, my breath, and in order to not be able to look at myself that way, it feels like “oh boy, I have to really go deep and work every single day towards a way where I fully love myself for the light that I truly am.” 

Sundae: That, on top of being a mother, a spouse, having a full-time job, keeping the lights on, getting food on the table. It’s that extra burden and I wrote down “exhausting” because I think it’s really the definition of white privilege – you don’t have to carry an extra burden every single day. A lot of people are up-levelling their activism now, who are white and we have the privilege of putting pause, like “I’m tired, so today I’m gonna take a break.” You just can’t pause your identity and how you show up in the world. 

Ntando: It’s funny that you say that because I spoke at a gathering recently here in Bern,  of which I really did not mean to speak. I didn’t mean to get up and speak but the moment presented itself because I was surrounded by other black and people of color and it felt so good to actually see them and feel them and be there and be surrounded by others who look like me. 

Then I got up and I spoke and said exactly that. That we are tired, but we are tired because we are living this, we are tired because for us this is not something that you can leave at the door when you go somewhere. This is something that follows you everywhere you go. 

Sundae: Yep, that was probably one of my aha moments when I was reading, either it was So you want to talk about race or Catrice Jackson’s book Antagonists, Advocates and Allies. I have to go back and look at the reference, but she said “if you’re white and you’re not going to bed exhausted every night from fighting racial Injustice. You’re not doing enough.”

Ntando: Yeah. Yeah, and that is how we feel most of the time and even when you are not fighting racial Injustice, just in general living your life, walking around as a person of color, I think that’s how you feel. I think it’s the small things that hurt the most, it’s the small things that I said at the dinner table, it’s somebody that you are trying to be friends with.

It’s the small things that are said while you are at the playground playing with the kids, it’s small things at the shopping center while you are trying to get groceries and when you are doing normal things. It’s the way that somebody at the train station clutches their wallet as you come close to them, you know things like this, that seem really really small, but I think in the long term, you know form a lot of anxiety and stress.

Sundae: Yep, it’s a death by a thousand cuts. So this is something that’s connected to what you have to endure. I mean, we’re talking to a globally mobile community, so there are people who are like you, in Holland and you’re like “wait a minute, I thought I escaped this” and you’re finding it in other contexts, finding it in new ways, and you’re encountering race and what it mean in other contexts that are different.

I always talk about the difference between resilience and endurance and endurance leads to depletion and resilience leads to rejuvenation. When I reflect on that, you talk separately about how often times people of color just endure and I ask myself is resilience a privilege concept. Is It possible to rejuvenate? 

Ntando: Honestly Sundae, I don’t know. Once I also said to you, “oh, we have been enduring for so long and what if we overcame?” What would that mean If we overcome all these things that we are enduring? I think it’s because enduring sounds like you’re just you putting up with what’s going on, you’re just letting it pass.

So I guess resilience would mean that we see a future, it would mean that we see past what’s going on, It means that we are completely aware of this shift that is going on right now, that we fully acknowledge all the feelings that are coming up and but at the same time we see ourselves better in the future and that is work. 

Sundae: I know that one of the things that you’re really amazing at is mindfully integrating self-care into your daily practice so that you can do the work for you so that you can show up in your business and show up for your family. What are some things that you think people of color should be more actively doing so that they can heal?

Ntando: The first part is to give ourselves the permission to feel what we are feeling right now. Regardless of what that means, whether it be anger, whether it be speaking out, whether it be, I don’t know, shouting at someone. If that is what this period needs, then that is what you need to do.

Just like when I saw the violence happening in the United States, the looting, you know coming from South Africa, I know what that feels like. I know the feeling of when somebody has been driven into a situation where they do that. When you’ve got nothing to lose.

 I hear comments of “oh, don’t trash your own house.” Yeah, but if you don’t believe that this is your house, if you believe that you have nothing to lose, of course you would trash it. Of course you would break windows and burn cities, because you’ve been ignored and not seen, and you are worthless in this world.

 So coming from that extreme into going inside ourselves and saying “okay, this is how it is right now, I am angry, I am sad, I feel completely ignored and for now this just has to be okay.” 

Sundae: It makes me think of the video that went viral from Kimberly Jones. How she talks about how the odds have been stacked against people of color the whole time. And she says, “the game is fixed.  

Ntando: That’s an emotional one. She made me cry when I watched that. I completely felt her pain and I understood exactly what she meant because that’s how it feels. It feels like in the game you play, what did she say? “50 rounds of Monopoly” and the game is stacked against you. 

Sundae: Well, you played for 400 years and then you get 50 more and then they burn your Monopoly money, as we’ve seen in many places. She asked the listener to go from asking not “what” but “why” 

Ntando: Which is a really good question. 

Sundae: So, permission to feel what you’re feeling… 

Ntando: …permission to feel what you’re feeling and that this is okay. I think step by step, day by day, which is what we are good at anyway, we are already really good at going “okay, that’s what’s going on out there, I just stay here and tomorrow I get up and go to work again.” I think that’s the same kind of compassion that we need to practice for ourselves.

Sundae: What do you do? So you feel your feelings, what else do you do in your regular day to refuel?

Ntando: I take a lot of baths. I take long showers if I feel I don’t have time to take a bath. because I have the pleasure of having a lot of water around and swiss water is really good. 

I meditate every day in the morning, first thing in the morning. When I get up, when I open my eyes, I think “yay this is going to be a good day.” Even when I don’t believe it I think “oh my goodness, this is wonderful that I can open my eyes and start afresh.” Then I breathe a couple of times and get my cup of coffee and go back to bed and sit for a bit and then find a moment of stillness.

I don’t call it meditation because it has so many negative connotations if you call it meditation. I say find stillness and so that’s what I try to do every day is to find stillness. Some days it’s hard to find stillness because my brain is busy trying to figure out “what to do, what to do, there’s so much going on, what should you do, what should you do, what can you do?” 

Then throughout the day, I set my alarm and find stillness in the middle of the day just for two minutes. It doesn’t have to be that long. I think the big part is self-talk, I do a lot of self-ease, in terms of talking to myself in a way I would talk to a friend. I try to do it throughout the day. 

Sundae: Most people would not talk to a friend like they talk to themselves. 

Ntando: No, and I think I discovered this also through our coaching and the way that I talk to myself and how hard I am on myself, but when I talk to a friend, I’m really kind and understanding and compassionate but not to myself.

Sundae: When I hear that, I’m hearing there’s an intention of this kind of gentle kindness with yourself. So tell me more about Show Up For Change, this program that you have, to support people of color, who are activists or expats of color who are abroad and are feeling the fatigue. Tell us a little bit more about that. 

Ntando: It’s a six-week program, and basically I use the things that I just spoke to you about, about self-care and going within, and I use those things to try to create a daily practice that could help you or to find a way to sustain that daily practice.

I think most of us always think that self-care is something that’s completely reserved for white people, or something that’s reserved for rich people, or something that people who don’t have to work, can do. I then think, if we work so hard, as people of color and live under so much pressure in our daily lives, how are we going to survive, how you going to survive the next 10 years if you don’t take 10 minutes just for yourself in a day, to know where you’re at and what the next step should be. 

Sundae: What makes me think about fight, flight or freeze: if you’re fighting constantly (Injustice, microaggressions and all of these things) when do you drop your guard and feel safe and give yourself the space to do that? 

Ntando: “To feel safe, and to have the space to do that” – when you say that, it makes me think of the podcast that I listened to this weekend. 

Sundae: With Resmaa Menakem and Krista Tippett from On Being, that we are amazing. I’m going to put in the show notes, it’s called Notice The Rage, Notice The Silence. For those who are curious which one she’s talking about, it’s with a therapist and trauma specialist – Resmaa Menakem and it’s powerful. Say more about what caught your attention about that podcast.

Ntando: Well, what caught my attention is the way that he talks about trauma and how trauma lives in our body as an energy and has always been there and gets passed down from generation to generation. How amazing is that and how scary is that? 

I have known this as a performer because I sometimes catch a glimpse of like, maybe you’ve seen this as well Sundae when you see a dancer move in a certain way and I think what moves you is the emotion behind the movement. I think it has a lot for me to do with this, that I can see someone’s trauma. I can feel people’s pain and joy through movement and through singing.

That’s what moves you actually when someone sings or dances or performs. It’s things like this that get lost, that words cannot find, but you feel and just know that it’s there. So when he said this, it confirmed this for me, because I’ve always known that we operate from such a place of trauma, but I’ve had the feeling that we people of color are not the only ones that are operating from trauma.

If blackness has been such a deviant all this time, surely then whiteness is too. This is what became true when I listened to this podcast. Therefore, we are not the only ones who are supposed to be doing the work, we should all be working because we are all hurt. We are all operating from a place of trauma. How insane is that! 

Sundae: It is insane. When I was listening and they talked about the work that you’ve known in your whole body your whole life, now we’re getting the science. Our science is developed to be able to prove it. What we’re doing in neurological research, and research on the cellular level, and energetically, I don’t know how this is possible, but they’re talking about how trauma is passed down for as many as fourteen generations. 

Ntando: How crazy is that? I can’t even deal. 

Sundae: Think of what people have endured. When you talk about enduring, it’s fourteen generations that’s trapped in our bodies. This is why this argument of ( oh, it’s a whole other argument) if I have been raised in a white supremacist context, that’s in my body, it’s in my cells.

This idea of trauma releases around detoxifying some of that, and I don’t understand the science behind it. I’m curious to learn more but we didn’t have the science even a generation ago to prove that. 

Ntando: For me, it also explains things about humanity that I did not understand. When I look at South African history and I try to understand why people would just torture people in the way white people have gone to a land and raped and tortured and killed in this way. 

For me, it is clear that everybody is operating from a place of just trauma and how sad is that it, because that really explains why you would look past your own humanity and kill other people as if they were animals.

Sundae: Because only from a traumatized place, are you going to do that. 

Ntando: Even now, when I speak out about what I experience in this society, why for some people it does not even move them, not even a little, to even try to hear what I’m saying, or even try to understand what it is that I could mean by what I’m saying, but they say “can you take it easy herb, It’s not what the person meant.”

Sundae: What hit me about this, is that there’s so many ways that we can dismantle injustice. I think about systemic things in our legal system, the way our cities are built et cetera et cetera,  and the more I think about it, the more I realized for me, in my own dismantling, I have to do it inside of me. I can’t just follow strategy – that’s why he said the difference between a strategy and a practice. 

It has to be In my cellular level and he talks about the body, he talks about white body supremacy. I’m just going to read something quick from the expert, from On Being with Krista Tippett and Resmaa Menakem. She reads from his book, which is on the way. I did order it already. So here’s what she read and I’m going to reframe it here because I think it’s important to the conversation, so everybody can hear some of the things that he’s talking about. 

He says “because of white body Supremacy” his talking about the physical body “here is now white, black and police bodies. The white body sees itself as fragile and vulnerable and it looks to police bodies for safety and protection. It sees black bodies as dangerous and needing to be controlled yet also as potential sources of service and comfort. The black body sees the white body as privileged, controlling and dangerous. It is conflicted about the police body which it sees as sometimes a source of protection, sometimes a source of danger and sometimes both at once. The police body sees black bodies as often dangerous and disruptive as well as superhumanly powerful and impervious to pain.” 

Ntando: I mean doesn’t that fully explain all the outrage in a way, or shed some light on all the outrage and how white policemen have responded to what’s going on at the moment.

Sundae: It reflects the research from unconscious bias. 

Ntando: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sundae: So where do we go from here Ntando?

Ntando: There’s nowhere else to go besides forward and inside, completely inside of ourselves and then forward, definitely forward. I think it’s in all the little things that we can do. 

I could imagine that it makes a difference next time when somebody sitting across from you at a table, who is a person of color, talks about something that hurts them or talks about something that affects them in the community that you live in, that you try to not take it personally, that you just take a moment and listen, that’s all.

I feel like for me that speaks more than you trying to defend the person in the story, blah blah blah, which is what usually happens. Taking a moment to just listen to somebody’s pain, validates who they are, very deep within them. For me, this is such a huge revolutionary act to do for a person of color in that situation. 

Sundae: I think people’s reflexes towards, a white person kind of comes out in the podcast too. Reading your racial resume like “oh I have family members and I was in that demo.” You’re defensive, you don’t want someone to see you as a racist or whatever and you lose an opportunity. 

Ntando: Yeah, and you lose an opportunity to connect, frantically connect with somebody on another level. On the level of the unspoken, on all things that we don’t understand. I mean, I don’t know if this sounds like whoo whoo, but yeah.

Sundae: What I’m hearing you share is some advice for people, for experts around the world and individuals around the world who are listening to this, who are not of a minority group, to just listen. What other advice do you have?

Ntando: You can reach out in your local community to other people of color who are working in social organizations, who need assistance. I would say do not offer anything they’ve not asked for. Ask what it is that they need, and if they don’t need anything, that’s okay. You can then go and do your own work by yourself, that does not involve asking them what it is that you should do. I don’t know if you noticed all the dialogue online from activists saying please stop writing us messages. 

Sundae: “Stop DMing me. It’s called Google!”

Ntando: Yes go to Google. Go look on Google as to what you can do or what to read.

Sundae: That is honestly one of the most interesting themes I’ve looked at. When you’re feeling that sense of injustice, you don’t want to be part of that injustice any longer and you want to do something physical.

Ntando: It’s good energy though. It’s a good place to be at because you want to do something, you want to change.

Sundae: What I’ve also been learning is if you haven’t done enough of your work, you could do more harm than good. 

Ntando: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

Sundae: So it’s like this balance of not being complacent, but also not jumping in 

Ntando: I saw a quote a couple of weeks ago that said something like “if your safe space requires people of color to come in and talk about their trauma, then it’s not a safe space.” So I think even in the face of trying to do something good, it is always possible to hurt the people that you are trying to To help the most. Of course when I think in the time that I’ve been doing all this social justice stuff, I don’t think there’s ever a moment where it’s not uncomfortable, and that is just the nature of the work. 

You do something wrong and then you go back and you talk about and you say “hey I messed up.” There is no perfect way to do this. It’s going to be ugly and messy because we are involved, we are both emotionally and physically involved. Then there’s the unspoken part of ourselves involved as well. 

Sundae: I know this is triggering for not just people that identify as being in the black community, but indigenous, other people of color, I know that this is triggering for other people who have suffered under injustices. So what advice do you have for them now and down the road? 

Ntando: Well, I can truly say that this is a good moment in our history because everybody is talking about all the injustices at the same time. It is also good that it’s out in the open because of the pandemic, COVID-19 pandemic. I mean, it’s insane that we have so many things going on at the same time, but it’s also an opportunity to rise and show up for yourself and be the person that you know yourself to be.

II also find that sometimes in the most difficult moments, I know exactly who I am and that there will be a tomorrow regardless of what happens. Does that make sense?

Sundae: Totally. I’m just writing that down. You said to be the person that you’re meant to be, the “showing up”, enough complacency or enough beating yourself up, whatever is the case for you. 

Ntando: Yeah, it’s enough. It’s enough! Show up and be the person that you are meant to be. 

Sundae: Oh Ntando, thank you so much. I wanted to just spend a couple minutes, making sure that we have time to talk about the work that you do. You are already a very active person as a theater-maker and a performer. In addition to that, your work is centered (work with individuals) is centered on empowering others and using their voice from what I know of your work. 

You’ve got one program, which is called Speak Like A Boss and one that’s the self-care program for people of color called Show Up For Change. Can you talk to us a little bit about those? 

Ntando: Speak Like A Boss: I think I created for people who want to be bosses. It’s a program that I created, that stems from my extensive work as a performer. It’s a way to create presence and to be able to use your voice well. I teach you simple techniques coming from storytelling, to make eye contact, to use your mouth to say things correctly. I also teach you a way to connect with people by being your authentic self. How beautiful is that, to know that there is a place that you can reach inside of you, using your voice that will then connect with other people. 

Sundae: Oh, I think we’re just starving for connection right now. Especially when so much of what we’re doing is over Zoom. So many people are put into these positions to be super professional and connect through this virtual technology and that connection over Zoom and whatever formats we’re using can feel lost. 

Ntando: Yeah. I think I started it because of that as well. Realizing there is actually a need for this because now we are here having to talk over Zoom throughout the day, but some people don’t know where to begin. It’s not the same as talking in front of an audience, but it still requires the same kind of focus and energy. 

Sundae: If not more. Then you have your program Show Up For Change. If someone is interested, tell us more about that and how they can learn more. 

Ntando: The next one starts mid-July because I start the new one this week already. The next one will be in mid-July, depending on how many people there are.

Sundae: Who is this perfect for? 

Ntando: this is perfect for you if you are in-between stuff at the moment and you feel like you don’t really know where you should be channeling your passion. This is for you if you feel overwhelmed and actually tired or even a bit frustrated by the work that you’re doing and you just need something that will ground you so that you can show up the best way possible. 

Sundae: That’s wonderful. So before we close, I just want to say thank you for your time today. I really appreciate it, using some of your precious energy and wisdom to speak to all of us here that are engaged with Expat Happy Hour. So thank you so much for that. If you have any last words of wisdom to share to our listeners, what pops up for you? 

Ntando: I think I already said listen and be there for people at the moment for anyone who needs an ear. I think something else that’s important is to take care of yourself right now because you cannot help other people if you are not able to help yourself. I think it starts with you. Recharge so that you can help other people. It makes sense, no? 

Sundae: Yeah, it does. It absolutely does. Thank you so much Ntando. This has been amazing. Thank you for being here. 

I’m just a step back now for a second and recap some of the things that I’m noticing from my conversation with Ntando. One is if you are an expat abroad, who is a person of color, to sort of give space as she’s saying, for you to create some rest in your own life and acknowledge that you are living in Olympic-level life times two, right now in this crisis.

Taking some time and carving it out actively as Ntando does so that you can rejuvenate and not burn out in this time. The other thing that I’m hearing from her is if you’re someone like me from the dominant culture, that do not diminish how important it is to start with you as an individual. To learn, or as I said in my email on Friday last week, unlearning borrowing from Rachel Cargill. The unlearning of all the things that we have been raised with, and see what we’re seeing in the research, that they are also trapped in our bodies. 

This is big stuff and it feels overwhelming. I hope that this podcast has given you some inspiration to take care of yourself so that you can keep going and keep moving forward to fight for what means most in your life. 

You’ve been listening to Expat Happy Hour with Sundae Bean, thank you for listening. I will leave you with the words of a revolutionary black feminist from the 1960s Audre Lorde “caring for myself is not self-indulgence. It’s self-preservation. And that is an act of Political Warfare.”